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My wife and I had a great debate the other night about the FLDS people in West Texas. She is pro-whatever is against the FLDS. I know she wants the men to be found guilty and I don't recall her stance on the mothers or the children. I know she defiantly wants that cult gone.
I am not taking the pro-FLDS side but I did take the pro- due process side as I have in the last FLDS post.
The first point was what boundary's does that state have when religion is in play?
Her position was that religion can only go as far as one civil rights are not violated. She went on to state that the mothers and children were brain washed into thinking that what they were doing was part of their religion when it actually is not. Thus their rights were violated as they were denied a chance to learn about other religions.
My position is you would have to take to court the entire catholic church, every evangelist, every Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, etc. every religion indoctrinates their children to really only to understand their own religion. Even in my own fairly liberal church we were not educated on anything outside of the bible, period. Now when I got to an age to start exploring other faiths I was able to walk my own path.
A sort of similar argument can ALMOST be said for this cult. However, their [the parents] children are held hostage if they ever try to leave. So there could be a clear contest for violation of civil rights. I'll have to stand back and let the State Attorney do her work....right, has she taken office yet?
The second point was you could claim everything that a religion calls part of its practice, legal
My wife contested that (according to my argument) someone could claim that killing children is part of their religion.
I objected. First the religion has to have some sort of doctrine. A written testament to moral behavior. Every religion has one....it keeps the people of that faith in control with the religion. You can't just, on a whim, start tagging all the children in your convent and then claim religious exemption. There has to be a written moral definition and cause for following the moral code.....like worship me or burn forever.
Where in the FLDS bible does it say that the leader of a church has the grace of god to drop his pants and squirrel away at the blond haired boy? So no....religion can not play the faith card and get away with everything
Lastly, (this was one of my points) that this is a clear example of persecution
I admit, what these people have been alleged to have been doing turns my stomach. However, when this story broke several years ago....yes its been that long. I clearly remember that local officials made the statement that they would be watching Warren Jeffs like hawk and bring this compound down. They came through on their promise.
My point was that the catholic church has been doing this exact something (not the polygamy but the kiddy lovin part) for CENTURIES. Their are victims coming forward from these acts as far back as the sixties. When the catholic church story broke it got a week or to of prime time coverage.
With the FLDS people we are going on a month, Dr. Phil is all over this, and I wouldn't be surprised if a trading card game comes out about this.
The point is that when a Catholic priest spreads the love of god through the anus of little Bobby its brushed under the rug. the FLDS people do it and its prime time TV for lord knows how long.
Why? Cause they are WEIRD! Yeah, they are very weird and I'll admit that. I cannot relate to them and thus this is interesting. The FLDS people are not like us and for that we hold their morals up to the light of our morals. Some how we become the judge of how they should live their lives.
Its food for thought. Lets hope in the end we, as a society, can help the children in this mess.
Almost exactly the same discussion has been occurring in my home, with my wife taking the position yours did, and with me taking your position.
ReplyDeleteGod bless our wifes! If it was just you and me this would be "by the numbers". They add the drama and compassion to this.
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ReplyDeleteOkay... here I am to set the record straight...
ReplyDeleteIf I come off on the defensive, it's because I have been presented as an irrational self-righteous religious bigot in this blog entry.
Media coverage is messing with my brain for starters. The last Dateline made everybody look like victims so the media coverage is conflicting and confusing. My strongest belief concerning FLDS is based on accounts of former members.
http://helpthechildbrides.com/ for example.
Okay, so this blog compares the FLDS to all other religions. I think there are several characteristics of the FLDS that do not match up. First off... I have never lived with fellow members of a congregation isolated from anyone who was not a non-believer. This blog compares the situation of FLDS with the Catholic church. Well, last I knew, the only people that take residence in a Catholic community are nuns and priests and that was a decision they made as adults, not that was made for them as children where they are taught that all outsiders are evil. The Catholic church allows other people to socialize with non-Catholics. So lets bring up another religious group that isolates itself from outsiders for a better comparison... the Amish. I remember a documentary called Devils Playground, here's an excerpt from the movie review "At 16 children enter rumspringa, a time that lasts between several months and several years, wherein teenagers explore the “english” world (known as the “devil’s playground”) and decide whether or not to join the Amish church." Wow... Imagine that... children get to decide at some point what direction they want to take their adult lives...
In a nutshell, NO I do not believe that your average American church/religious group is just as culpable as the FLDS. We know that wrongs were done in the Catholic church because of victims eventually going to the police. Because members of the FLDS are taught that the spiritual leaders can do no wrong and contact with the outside world is controlled by FLDS leaders, law enforcement does not occur. If you are a victim of a Catholic priest, going to the authorities is always an option.
"She is pro-whatever is against the FLDS. I know she wants the men to be found guilty and I don't recall her stance on the mothers or the children. I know she defiantly wants that cult gone." No. Who I want gone is Warren Jeffs and his co-conspirators. Warren Jeffs bears the bulk of the blame for why these people are brainwashed. If the FLDS had a leader who gave a crap about the law, the well-being of these people, and was meek like Jesus, then I doubt the FLDS would be in this mess.
"The second point was you could claim everything that a religion calls part of its practice, legal" Based on former FLDS member accounts, Warren Jeffs is a prophet and all that he says is from God.
"I objected. First the religion has to have some sort of doctrine. A written testament to moral behavior." Bullshit! They follow the word of their leaders as their religion. This round peg of a religion does not fit in this square peg of a definition.
The American culture at large does not accept polygamy, those under 18 being coerced in to sexual relationships with older predators, women and children being treated as property, and slavery. So far there is witness testimony given by former FLDS members and those who investigated Warren Jeffs to suggest that this is a pattern in the group. So yes, it it WEIRD. It's subversive, unlawful, and it violates the American idea where all would have the right to live free and free of tyranny. Yes, because the former FLDS and those who helped to convict Warren Jeffs would be able to find clear guilt of tyranny in this group. Our ancestors didn't like tyranny. They not only thought it was weird, but they thought it was wrong, so that's why they left Europe, then later abolished slavery, and then eventually let women have rights.
If the FLDS does not like our culture, perhaps they would be more comfortable in southeast Asia or Mexico where people are trafficked and deprived of rights and individuality. It's ironic that these FLDS leaders have used religious freedom afforded by this country to, in turn, deny the freedoms to those in submission to them.
American's seem to think that people deserve better than to be property, and should not be under coerced imprisonment, and that it's in a child's best interest to wait until they are old enough to make decisions on having sex and that women have more to offer the world than child-bearing and submissiveness. That's who we are and I am not ashamed of it.
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ReplyDelete"I know she wants the men to be found guilty and I don't recall her stance on the mothers or the children...ets hope in the end we, as a society, can help the children in this mess."
ReplyDeleteThe women and children are clearly victims, if the men are, it's not as clear. With the media coverage I didn't really see any emotion from the men or see them going to the courthouse trying to get their kids back as the women were. I noticed the men weren't around, why, I don't know. Yes, I do agree that the children have been harmed by the FLDS and probably will be victimized by the State of Texas if they haven't been already. It would be best if the children could go back to the mothers. Hoverver, routine CPS complaint procedures could continue, have counselors and government agents allowed by the FLDS to make regular follow-up visits with the children separate from the adults so that the children can have an opportunity to tell authorities if abuse is happening. If they have nothing to hid, they have nothing to fear. There are things that the FLDS can do to make themselves look less suspicious. What are the watchtowers for?